[Meridotahma]: As for www.prisonplanet.com there are several articles concerning the subjects I have spoken of there. Too many, really. But I will read through a few tonight and repost here what I could find about some of the subjects for everyone who wants them.

[Meridotahma]: Here is a great article concerning Skull and Bones, including a lot of information on Kerry's association and membership. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2004/050804powerfulsecrets.htm

[Meridotahma]: Here is a very interesting index on The Bohemian Grove. If you have never heard of it, it is a meeting of many powerful men, mostly Masons, who gather to worship Molech and annually sacrifice their "dull care" for mankind. http://www.prisonplanet.com/world_leaders_engage_in_symbolic_pagan_worship.html I encourage you to research while I look around for the video link of Alex Jones breaking into the secret meeting and taping their rituals.

[Meridotahma]: [Rondel], this is for you, most of all. http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_freemasonry.html Lots of good information of the Freemasons.

[Meridotahma]: And finally, there is the subject of 9-11. There is so much information out there on this subject, so I will post some things on that as well. For now, I found this link to a short video clip compilation from footage in a few of the documentaries from Alex Jobes. http://prisonplanet.com/articles/september2005/120905insidejob.htm The main reason behind posting this specifically, though, is that it also has footage from the Bohemian Grove incident in which Alex infiltrated the meeting and video taped their ritual sacrifice of dull care.

[Meridotahma]: It also has a bit of footage of Larry Silverstein, leaseholder on all of the World Trade Center buildings destroyed, who had but three weeks before the attack taken out an unprecedented insurance policy on them. After the attack, when asked why Building 7 fell as well, he said the building was pulled, which is a term meaning they demolished it. The reason he gave was that the fire had spread too much and it could not be saved. It takes two weeks to set up demolitions for a building to be imploded, yet they somehow did this within five hours of the alleged decision. Upon realizing this error, they changed their story, saying it collapsed on it own, but footage clearly shows it was imploded.

[Peace_Turtles]: "They haven't given us any other options outside the occasional, purely symbolic, participatory act of voting. You want the puppet on the right? Or the puppet on the left?"-Waking Life

[Dil*]: Ah yes, I'll bookmark them for now...just heading off to bed now. But quote: "Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence." Well, you might think your claims are not extraordinary, but others beg to differ. Most people, in fact.

[Dil*]: damn, 2 out of 4 links don't work.

[Meridotahma]: Okay, just fixed the links. They should all work now. As for the quote, I totally agree, which gives me reason to wonder why the extraordinary claims made by the media and mainstream of these things go unchecked.

[Rondel]: *wonders if anyone else actually reads the House pages of those with whom they are attempting to discuss issues of any magnitude, or if it is general to simply assume whatever viewpoint one objects to, on the part of the other participants in the discussion* [Meridotahma], if you don't know why I'm making that comment, you might try having a look at my House page, and that of the other regular posters on this Wiki. Perhaps, just perhaps, it will occur to you on doing so just *why* "evidence of ritual sacrifice of dull care" does NOT strike all of your readers as convincing evidence of large-scale political conspiracy on the part of the participants. As for "journalist vs. politician", it

[Rondel]: is *politicians* who use unsubstantiated rhetoric to support their claims, in stating their positions, and *journalists* whose job it is to dispassionately present the facts, allowing the reader/listener/viewer to draw their own conclusions. By your own statements, above, you are NOT abiding by the standards of the profession under whose mantle you would appear to be attempting to justify your accusations. Please connect your points, one to another, if you wish for others to follow the link you appear to see between them. Until then, "rituals to Molech" remain rituals, not proof of global conspiracy. Do you understand now? *sigh* Journalists mustn't assume *anything* about their readers.

[Rondel]: To be honest, all I see in "rituals to Molech" is what I already described: " groups of people who get together, indulge in some half-understood traditions".

[Rondel]: As for the "two party voting system", it does seem to match the following quote: "fig leaves of democratic procedure to hide the nakedness of ... dictatorship." -- George Frost Kennan

[Meridotahma]: Rondel, take my information for what it is, but there is no need to criticize someone half your age who is just trying to relay a bit of information. If you have a question, ask it. If you have a comment, make it. But I do not need to be criticized for just trying my hardest to relay some of my opinions and beliefs.

[Dil*]: I don't think rondel is trying to insult you or anything, just trying to help you out by pointing out flaws in some of your arguements.

[Duredhel]: All of this information [Meridotahma] is posting reminds me so much of Focault's Pendulum...

[Meridotahma]: It is not that there is a flaw in the argument itself, I should say, but that there is a flaw in how I present it to Rondel, considering that a ritual to Molech is obviously something that would not derail her from her standing on Masons. Though, I still say, Rondel, to take a look at the link for the Freemasons to get a better understanding of the corrupt politician side of things in their order.

[Meridotahma]: By the way, I never realized my argument was akin to a Foucault Pendulum.

[Duredhel]: No no, sorry, I meant the book, by Humerto Eco, I think you might enjoy it

[Rondel]: Umberto Eco? The author of "The Name of the Rose"? I haven't encountered that book, but I really enjoyed his writing in those of his works which I *have* read. :) For those who aren't familiar with him, here's the Google link (take your choice of various biographical and bibliographic information on him, it makes for some fascinating reading): http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22Umberto+Eco%22

[Rondel]: As for my comments, I don't tend to concern myself with a person's age, when I participate in a discussion with them; rather, I prefer to address the point that they have or have not made, and the evidence which they have or have not presented in support of their position. I'm far more concerned by the news footage of high level US military officials claiming that an airplane shadow is a "demon" caught on film, than I am with the rituals (Christian or otherwise) in which a person chooses to participate *on their own time, as a private citizen*. If you want to convince me (or those others who are swayed by logic/reason rather than by rhetoric), you have to connect your points & demonstrate

[Rondel]: how they support your position; that's all my comments were intended to say. You said a number of things for which you presented no direct evidence, then attempted to excuse these acts on the basis that you are "a journalist" "not a politician"; my point was that it is not the act of a journalist to present a series of statements with no proof, but it is a common approach taken by politicians. If you don't recognize the connection between your statements and mine, I can't help that. I have, however, done my best to clearly link each of my critiques to one or more of your statements, to walk you through precisely the approach that you *could* take, should you desire to present a more

[Rondel]: credible & coherent argument in favour of your beliefs. I am as likely to do this with a person with whom I agree as one with whom I disagree, by the by, as I don't want my own position tainted in the eyes of the public by people who present it without evidence & then get upset when it isn't accepted as gospel truth. To take my earlier example, there IS evidence that the shadow in that image was that of a US military aircraft, & the specific aircraft has been identified. There is NOT, however, any evidence that "demons", "god", "satan", (or "Molech", for that matter) have anything to do with the war Bush has engaged in, other than as justification presented by the religiously obsessed

[Rondel]: members of the government & military within each of the nations involved (& those non-governmental organizations involved, as well). However, this use by Bush & others of "god" as justification for their position does not mean that I would consider a person's engaging in rituals to "god" to be proof that they were engaged in a conspiracy with Bush. The same holds true of any other metaphysical entity, "Molech" included. I have no interest in joining the religious vendetta among individuals or nations. I *am*, however, concerned when a military leader describes the participation of such entities in a war in which that individual has the power of life & death over soldiers & civilians of

[Rondel]: many nations, including both the one in which I live, & the one of which I am a citizen. Do you see the difference between these two examples? Because that difference was my point. Despite your rather hostile approach, & your denigration of the other participants in this discussion, I am (surprisingly) still willing to consider any coherent information you have to present. I'm even willing to guide you as to how to do that. But my patience with being attacked for that is not infinite. I think I've stated my position clearly enough, now, so I'm going to leave the ball in your court -- and if you wish to continue the discussion in a productive way, you may do so. It's up to you.

[Rondel]: One last point -- "opinions and beliefs" don't require proof, but they aren't grounds for convincing others. Facts require proof, or at least a weight of evidence. Please make up your mind as to which it is you are attempting to present. Opinions & beliefs are frequently shared on this wiki -- but without attacking others for being unwilling to accept them as evidence for changing their OWN views. You can't have it both ways. Either these are opinions & beliefs, which you are sharing -- or these are facts with evidence to back them up, of which you are attempting to convince others. You have no grounds for criticizing others for not sharing your views if they are not based in fact.

[Meridotahma]: Well... that was a lot to take in. Let me get a handle on things for two seconds, eh.

[Meridotahma]: Alright, now I will say that there is a lot in that rather large statement that I could argue against, but there really is no point here in fighting to make myself look right or better, I should simply focus on fighting to make Bush look insane and incorrect on his approach to things. Okay? Okay. I have class in a few minutes, so I will sum this up as much as I can. I do mean opinions and beliefs when I am talking about the Masons. I should have clarified. Though there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are a corrupt, unsavory bunch, that is not what I should be focusing on. I will just continue relaying links and evidence from several sources and discuss them.

[Meridotahma]: As was said in my Journalism course today, journalism is all fact and never assumption. On that note, I will say that if I am a politician, I must be a poor one. Let's just set everything else said aside and agree on the one thing that has brought us all here-- that Bush is a Grade A jackass.

[Rondel]: As I see it, your statement concurs with the point I had to make: "it is *politicians* who use unsubstantiated rhetoric to support their claims, in stating their positions, and *journalists* whose job it is to dispassionately present the facts, allowing the reader/listener/viewer to draw their own conclusions." Or, as you chose to put it, "journalism is all fact and never assumption". I appreciate your decision to clarify that you were discussing your "opinions and beliefs" when talking about the Masons, as it certainly did not come across that way. I honestly don't see anything in my "rather large statement" with which you can take issue, while standing by what you've just said...

[Rondel]: ...but, as you have gone on to say, that's "not what I should be focusing on". I do find it interesting that after stating that these were your opinions, you attempted to place them back in the realm of fact by stating that "there is a lot of evidence to suggest they are a corrupt, unsavory bunch" (given that evidence is the realm of fact and proof...), but once again without citing any of it -- & I hope that you will not continue to use this tactic in your arguments against Bush, because willingness to cite (if not necessarily name) sources is the hallmark of a true journalist, & that of fact-supported argument -- which is what I prefer in those who attempt to represent important truths.

[Rondel]: I look forward to your "relaying links and evidence from several sources", and hope that you will, in future discussions, allow the facts (rather than your opinions and beliefs) to "make Bush look insane and incorrect on his approach to things". As Pete Seeger said, "some people you don't have to satirize, you just quote 'em", and G. W. Bush should supply more than adequate evidence of that latter type, on his own. In my peronal opinion, he already has -- but I will let others decide that for themselves, once the facts are laid out before them, & I look forward to seeing your future comments disseminating such facts, as well. :)

[Rondel]: As for my own comments, before you take further issue with them, I'd suggest that you run them by your journalism professor, to get an outside opinion on them from a professional in the field. Were you to do so, and share any resulting comments with us, I suspect you and I might *both* find the results quite interesting, and possibly enlightening. Good luck with your classes.

[Goldice]: [Estantia] gave me this to post here: Q: How many Bush Administration officials does it take to change a light bulb?

[Goldice]: A: None. There is nothing wrong with the light bulb; its condition is improving every day. Any reports of its lack of incandescence are illusional spin from the liberal media. Illuminating rooms is hard work.That light bulb has served honorably, and anything you say undermines the lighting effort. Why do you hate freedom?

[kduncan]: lol

[Peregrinus]: that's priceless...

[Hobbit teen]: I HATE BUSH HE IS A TREASONER BECAUSE I LIVE IN THE USA AND HE KILLED MY UNCLE THRU WAR

[Jecka]: lol thats asome

[Rondel]: The light-bulb joke is a hoot and a half!!! LOL

[Jecka]: hoot whata awesome word

[¤ WORLDS ¤happiest¤ EMO ¤™]: some oxymorons====Military action and Government intellegence

[TwIsTeD AnImAtOr]: Hey ppl im new here.... that last comment was hilarious!

[TheEvilHat]: people join the army by choice...and when you join the army, you are basically saying "I want to go into battle" and in battle, people Do get killed... so Bush has nothing to do with the death of any soldiers if you ask me...

[TheEvilHat]: its all by choice...

[TheEvilHat]: Though, i dont like how bush runs the country, and i didnt vote for him.

[Peregrinus]: Well, yes, people do join the army by choice, but it only seems right to treat their lives with respect by only sending them into war with just cause. The justice of this war is questionable at best.

[kduncan]: I'm not sure anyone joins the military with the hopes.. or even the expectation.. of actually having to serve in a time of war. I'm not sure if you mean military when you say army, EvilHat, or if you specifically mean the branch of the military referred to as the army. I've worked pretty extensively with Air Force pilots, and most join with the goal of gaining valuable flight time quickly.. and then getting out as soon as they have fulfilled their obligation to get a job with an airline, cargo company, or corporation. All branches of the military offer excellent training/educational opportunities for both enilisted personnel and officers. Most of the military pilots I've known don't really

[kduncan]: look forward to flying into a combat zone, but will if they have to.

[Peregrinus]: I dunno, I think there are a good many people who would be proud to serve this country in combat. But they really shouldn't have to if it can be avoided.

[Aki Neko]: bosh is an ass.........................i hate him.........................

[Orey]: Guys I know there are alot of use who hate bush... but if you are going to say somthing say something not so bland! Put some meaning in it!!!

[Lord Kügenheim]: I feel a new rule coming on ^_^

Rule Update. Go read

[TwIsTeD AnImAtOr]: wot if sum of us dnt have the intelligence to put a meaning ful comment down?

[Lord Kügenheim]: then don't put one down. Simple ^_^

[Lord Kügenheim]:

The EP independent has asked us to write a short paragraph about why we hate Bush. It would be great if you guys could come up with something. Don't make it to long though. ^_^

[TwIsTeD AnImAtOr]: oh, shame, i hav so many things to say but i jus cant put it in writing, (sigh)

[kduncan]: Kugenheim, do you want us to post it here, or do you want us to message you with the reasons? Also, what is the EP Independent?

[Lord Kügenheim]: It's the Elfpack version of the Herald. A message would be better [kduncan], And thanks :-)

[kduncan]: K, thanks.

[Roc]: [www.costofwar.com]

[kduncan]: Cool site. It sort of reminds me of the billboard they had years ago that ticked off the national debt during the Reagan administration as it continued to rise. What's particularly interesting is the cost compared to other issues, education, world hunger, etc. I think the thing alot of people miss is that the fight against "terrorism" is essentially a futile mission, ie: Yes, the US will be fighting against terrorism forever more. Or at least as long as there still is a US. The real way to combat terrorism is to feed, clothe, and educate the people who the terrorsts would recruit. A glance at the site, and the comparisons, tells us that the US could easily do this single-handedly.

[Peregrinus]: But the war is a control mechanism. It's just like George Orwell's novel 1984. The purpose of the war is to perpetuate the war, in a sense. It keeps the populace occupied.

[Meridotahma]: Good point-- very good, actually. And I think people should really focus on that.

[Peregrinus]: Mind you, that is not to say that i think that is the entire purpose and be-all of the war, but it certainly does serve to distract the populace from other, more important things. Including, among others, humanitarian efforts (of the lack thereof).

[Dil*]: goddamnit, everytime I try to sign out 1984 from the library, it's out...BLOODY TAKEN OUT!! (built up frustration over the many times I've tried).

[Element princess]: I hate Bush

[kduncan]: No doubt, Peregrinus. After all, war is extremely profitable in many ways, and so is having a very undefinable, vague, common enemy for the populace to rally against. The very vague enemy "terrorists" gives the US pretty much carte blanche to invade and take over any country that might be harbouring said shady group of individuals that might be plotting in dank basements and tenement apartments to overthrow the world.

[kduncan]: I broke down and bought my own copy several years ago, _Dilandau_. I've read, and re-read. 1984 so many times that it made sense for me to make the book part of my own personal library. Another book worth reading and re-reading is The Jungle.. also in my library now. Oh.. and the complete works of Edgar Allan Poe.

[Rondel]: Two things -- 1984, like George Orwell's other novels, is available online, for free, as an ebook, from Project Gutenberg ( http://www.gutenberg.org ). That's where I get many of my classics, since I can't use the standard library any more. Second, as for war, the documentary I saw last night showed experts discussing the fact that the US' local oil supply is due to run out in *8* years. The Bush-Cheney (crafted by Cheney, implemented by Bush) foreign policy has become inextricably entwined with its energy policy, which is NOT based on effective management of resources, but rather, the acquisition of other people's resources for US use.

[kduncan]: I posted a link in the Bush Supporter's forum regarding the finite oil supply. Hubbert's Peak (the point at which we will start seeing a reduction in oil supply/production) is thought by leading geophysicists to occur around 2010 - 2015 (not just domestic.. but worldwide). I think we're starting to see the signs of it now. There's alot of information on Hubbert's peak online, and it's interesting reading. If only some of the Bush supporter's would actually bother looking up the info we've provided for them. It is easier to live believing that we have an "unlimited" supply of oil.. until the oil runs out.

[Rondel]: It always fascinates me that anyone thinks that we live in a finite world with an infinite supply of *anything*, including places to dispose of our waste. *sigh* My adopted country is now being confronted with a proposal which, though seemingly logical, seems to me to reflect an utter absence of responsibility on the part of other nations: to whit, that the mines from which much of the world's uranium supply was taken, should be used to dispose of the world's nuclear waste. That seems to me much the way most nations treat their country regions, and their "primary production" resources -- strip them of all they have to give, then fill them with the refuse created in the process.

[Rondel]: I have never understood where anyone thinks they are going to live, nor what they think they are going to live on, if they do this. *sigh*

[Dil*]: We're going to wipe ourselves out. I find this unevitable, the apathy of the western society will destroy us. Wow, angst, this is what you get from several years of stupid debating.

[Peregrinus]: Well a lot of it comes from this warped Christian mentality that Armageddon is coming anyway, and so we can prety much do whatever we want to this planet before God comes to take the worthy away. Mind you, I'm a Christian (though admitedly not a very orthodox, or even "good" Christian, in a lot of ways), and I think this is an insult to my own religious beliefs. It is the misuse of this religion, in many ways, that has caused the vast majority of the problems in this nation at present. it's this conservative revolution we've embarked upon, with its contradictory values and self-destructive attitude. In the end, it's all about power. It's all about who controlls what

[Peregrinus]: and who controlls who. Those in power don't care if our children get to enjoy healthy, plentiful lives. They are selfish by nature, and want to hoard all the power, wealth, and resources they can for themselves before they die too. In so many ways, western philosophy reflects this Sophist viewpoint, and it's tearing our world apart. Whew... that was something of a rant...

[Dil*]: I used to be selfish when I was younger, 13 or so...my belief at the time: Well I'll be long dead and buried when environmental issues get serious." since then, I've grown up. I actually don't litter and am planning to get into more environmental things.

[kduncan]: I daresay that even our grandparents don't often "care" whether the resources they have so wontonly consumed are available to their grandchildren and great-grandchildren. There is a sense of entitlement in the US ( I can't speak for the people of other nations), and with that sense of entitlement comes a desire to not believe that the resources we are consuming faster than any people before us won't always be there. Combine that with the pervasive sense of fear that we are bombarded by every single day by advertisers.. and it's not hard to understand why Americans are reluctant to give up some of the things we consider "necessities".

[Rondel]: David Suzuki was on a kids' nature show we watch, today, and he had a quote which I find highly relevant: "most people act as though the economy is the most important thing, but it isn't, it's the climate." We can't live without a planet which can support life. We can live with less than 2.6 (or whatever the current number is) cars per household, etc. Food is necessary. Air is necessary. Clean water is necessary. But, these are what is being sacrificed, in the name of the economy. *sigh*

[Dil*]: add to my last post, I think it's time for people to grow up. If I can grow up, so can others. I mean, environmental issues aren't a new thing. It demands our attention. 

[Rondel]: One of Dr. Suzuki's other comments was that he's often approached by parents saying "thanks to you, my kids are always harrassing me, saying 'don't throw that away, that goes in the recycling!'" Dr. Suzuki and I agree on this -- it's a good thing that if he's reaching anyone, he's reaching the kids, the people who will become the next generation of consumers, the people who will drive the assumptions behind the next generation of our culture. Growing up isn't the only thing we need to do -- sometimes what we need to do is be as children, willing to listen and learn and grow, and take on new responsibilities that we didn't formerly have. Forward via going back.

[Peregrinus]: I completely agree, Rondel. There is muh wisdom in the minds of our children. Children see things as if they are wholly new ad exciting. They are true philosophers. It takes a really mature person to be able to see things through a child's eyes.

[kurikala]: Oil is it, its the source of it all well tecnically cash is, if oil could be eliminated either by boycoting oil products or some other means the we could stop this mess from getting more out of hand than it has done already. yup the children stuff is very true, anyone older than university age has pretty much been dominated by cash, cash is just too powerful for older people, it corrupts and screws up everything it touches, there is no way of putting an end to cash, but oil...

[kduncan]: er.. not everyone older than university age has been dominated by cash. Just too powerful for older people.. sheesh. You know, kurikala, some of the most vocally anti-Bush, anti-corruption, and anti-greed people in this forum are "people older than university age".

[Dil*]: and sadly a high number of young people are extremely impressional and join the anti bush movement just cause' they're favorite band is leftist.

[Rondel]: I have to concur with [kduncan] here, [kurikala] -- as you might note, several of the most vocal posters on this wiki are in the category you describe. Not all of us are dominated by cash. Nor oil, for that matter. You have some very "Green" adults here, and I'm talking in the sense of environmentalist, not money-hungry. Those children who can keep that mindset once they reach an age where they have the power to make political change, THOSE are where the greatest hope lies, IMHO. But there is more chance of such adults arising, the more children there are who take on an understanding while they are young and do not yet have to balance as many responsibilities (including financial ones).

[Demon days are mine]: bush is an idiot (wepons of mas distruction) bull he is the only wepon i see seriously ( there all to blame for this war) down with war!!!!!!

[Vampires do exist]: YOU GO!!!! (i would say gir/boy but im not sure if your a girl or boy)

[Peregrinus]: I have no words...

[Vampires do exist]: RRRRRIIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT

[Peregrinus]: um... wha?

[Peregrinus]: and where'd the picture go?

[Vampires do exist]: what picture?

[Peregrinus]: the one ith the statue of liberty.

[Kelaria]: if you guys want it I'll send it to you. But I hate pictures cluttering up message boxes

[Peregrinus]: Oh. Gotcha. No biggy.

[Vampires do exist]: oh that picture

[BarleySinger]: One of the nastiest thing that has happened since Gulf War I (also in Kosavo and the Balkalands, Afghanastan and in Iraq war 2I) is the use of what are called "Depleted Uranium"shells, which rip through tanks but, contain a lot of very radioactive stuff with a half life of 4.5 billion years. Now there are babies born in Iraq all the time with missing limbs and no heads or that are just blobs of jelly. A huge number of people are sick with radiation poisoning. The Uranium is not actually standard depleted uranium from a reactor either (which would be bad enough) but it has all worts of wierd isotopes mixed with with it from various expirimental government sites. Deadly stuff.

[BarleySinger]: The US military tested the stuff in three places (The Philipines, Japan and PortoRico). All three overnment amde them stop and the clean (if even possible) could easily take 300 years. Now they are trying to start testing in environmentally sensitive part of Western Australia and Queensland. I guess we know why Australia got such a good deal....what the OTHER parts of the free trade agreement John Howard of Australia made were. It is comon knowledge that the free trade act was partly done ONLY for support in Iraq and Afghanastan.  I guess irradiating Australia was another compromnise Howard was willing to make for a few bucks.

[Dil*]: that's just plain horrible.

[kduncan]: If you support the Bush administration, you might not want to click the following link.. it might be painful to read. http://www.melancon.house.gov/SupportingFiles/documents/Analysis_of_Brown_Emails.pdf

[Dil*]: uhm, it won't work for me...

[kduncan]: hmm.. I couldn't get the link to open either. Try this instead, http://www.melancon.house.gov/ , There's an explanation on Congressman Melancon's homepage, ie: too many hits on the site. He provides other links to the files in question on his homepage. In reading the emails, one can see just how completely out of touch some Bush officials are. In the emails Brown doesn't even seem to be aware of the fact that there had been a major hurricane strike along the coast of the US. I'm fairly aware of how completely disfuntional the Bush administration is, but this was a jaw-dropper even for me.

[Vampires do exist]: well think about this in like 3 years we wont have to deal with bush ever again ^.^

[Nickstur;; ISGONE.]: i hate bush even though i dont liv in america. hes so flippin ugly!!!omg!!!!!!grrrrrr.. lol

[Hobbit teen]: man he is butt ugly because he aint no al gore

[Hobbit teen]: mmmmmmmmmmhhhhhmmmm....

[Hobbit teen]: the people who like bush are all nutz and should be put in a fire one by one for being traiters of the country may him rought in hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[kduncan]: I'm not sure that putting them in a fire is exactly what people who do not support the current administration should be calling for, after all.. that's exactly what Bush supporters think should be done with us "liberals" (because, obviously anyone who doesn't support the Bush administration must surely be a liberal). Frankly, I like to think I'm a little more tolerant of people with opinions that differ from my own than most Bush supporters seem to be of those with opinions that differ from theirs. Do you really want to be like them, Hobbit teen?

[kduncan]: With that said though, I'd like to recommend a film. If you haven't seen it yet, you should take the opportunity to see "Embedded", by Tim Robbins. It's not a movie, but a play that was filmed live and deals with events surrounding the Iraqi war (ie: US invasion of Iraq), and the role embedded journalists have played in the dis-information supplied by these journailsts to the American public. Yes, it's blatant propaganda.. but I'm not sure that propaganda promoting peace and truth is really such a bad thing.

[BarleySinger]: read this page ( http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ ) ... we are all very totally screwed beyond belief. This is not from some nut case. Everything here is from very conservative sources, about what is going to happen far too soon.

[Dil*]: aww F***, we're screwed. I've known this for a while now...but it still hits hard to home. 

[Peace_Turtles]: We are so F____ed.....

[kduncan]: I don't believe all of us are screwed beyond belief, but, yes.. most people are. I've known since I was a child that civilisation as we know it will change drastically .. and I've always known that the changes will occur in my lifetime.

[BarleySinger]: Well, some people won't be. Mostly people who live in very poor parts of the world that are still totally self sustaining. As for people in the US who get each piece of the food on a dinner plate from 1500 miles away...that will be impossible.  Food used to come from local sources, grown by people who knew HOW. Now it is gown according to the intructions of the chemical company that act in the role of the farmers partner. As for medicine....well...read the wiki PeakOil. People needed to be building a new energy and chemistry infrastructure 30 years ago so that this would not happen. Big oil won because politicians are self serving.

[BarleySinger]: The really telling thing is that there is no NEW technology replacement (anywhere near fast enough) and there have been no new oil refineries built in a very long time. Given that oil companies have the cash to get to do whatever they want, if they had more oil to refine (to keep up with the fast rising demand from earths 6.5 billion people) there would be more refineries...nobody is bothering with coal becasue of the carbon 14 it spews out (more radiation to the local people than nuke plants) and the air polution that it would contribute to global warming. If there WAS a plan to cope with this, there would be a lot of SOME kind of technology and a lot of new construction someplace.

[kduncan]: I posted a link to the peakoil site a couple months ago. With regards to the comment that people in the US get each piece of food from 1500 miles away.. that may be true for the average American, but there are a good many Americans who are quite self-sufficient (ie: Amish).. who even shun modern means of personal transport. It's not only people in the poorest nations who will survive.. but any people who are self-sufficient, including those in very wealthy countries. Indeed, some of the people in the poorest parts of the world may not make it because they rely heavily on the generosity of wealthier nations.. a generosity that may well hit the skids when the poop hits the fan.

[kduncan]: Coal is not an adequate means of supplying power for exactly the reasons you've stated; indeed, nuclear power is preferable despite the fact that we don't know how to deal with the waste produced. The governments of all nations (not just the US) need to provide funding and incentives for companies that are searching for realistic alternative fuels.. this is especially true of the emerging industrial giants China and India. It's easy to look at the US to place blame, and though the US does use more than its share of the earth's resources, other countries are also at fault. Many of the SUV's that Americans (and Canadians) drive are produced by Japanese, German, and Canadian companies. South

[kduncan]: and Central American countires allow the deforestation of their lands by American companies.

[Dil*]: Eliminate cars, replace them with hydrogen fuel or electric vehicles/transportation. Then we might have a chance..., the price we pay will be high.

[Rondel]: [kduncan], I do agree with you, and I think it's important that we not view any group of people as a "lump sum", because people don't work that way; each of us differs from his or her neighbours, and in times of crisis, it is those very differences which may make the difference between survival and failure to do so. That said, some things are too large in scale to be understood, at least as an introductory overview, on anything *other* than a mass scale -- and on that scale, the average American's food comes from 1500 miles away, while the average Canadian's food travels 5000 miles before it is eaten. Those of you/us who "think globally & eat/act locally" are lowering that average -- but

[Rondel]: there are others who are raising it, & the balance still comes out the same. I know my own food comes from local sources -- heck, in many cases I know the name and/or face of the person who grows it. But that doesn't change the fact that the medicine which keeps me alive & able to care for my daughter is made from crude oil (as with the medicine taken by at least one member of each of your own families, I'll bet), & so is the silicon chip at the heart of the computer on which I am typing & sending this message -- just as in each of yours. NONE of us will be untouched by this, no matter how hard we work to be a part of the solution, instead of a part of the problem. *sigh* But we

[Rondel]: can still make a difference, & we need to be working to do what we can, now, as well as planning for the future, which WILL include "Peak Oil", no matter *WHOSE* figures you believe. I know my own family has been planning how to cope with these *specific* changes for most of my married life, & has been working in this general direction even longer than that... ...but it will be necessary to take action on both the large scale & the small if we are to make it through this change in any way other than bare survival of a sort most people don't contemplate outside of a Stephen King novel or other apocalyptic fiction. In the meantime, it would be nice if we didn't poison the earth on which that

[Rondel]: survival is going to depend in a way unimaginable to most children of our modern technological era... ...so I'd like to add another movie recommendation to your own, [kduncan]: an Australian documentary on the use of Depleted Uranium weapons (which I personally suspect of being the cause of the disabling condition affecting one of my own treasured Elftown friends...), called "Blowin' in the Wind" (yes, after the "hippie peacenik" song of the same name -- but also as a coldly accurate description of the action of the toxic dust left on every battlefield & weapons testing range where these weapons are used). You speak of the issue of disposing of nuclear waste -- well, this is one of the

[Rondel]: answers currently in use, & one against which I would heartily recommend -- as would the parents of the increasing numbers of two-headed children in Iraq & other countries whose soil has seen the use of these weapons, along with many of the members of the military of the US and Australia, as well, who are coming to terms with the horrific realization that their participation in those wars may have doomed their own children and grandchildren to suffer from horrific and damaging genetic mutations. If you're the type to understand things better through fiction, you might try looking for an old copy of "A Canticle for Leibowitz", one of the SF legacies of the Cold War, which gives the reader a

[Rondel]: graphic and compelling description of what these two factors (Peak Oil's pending potential of bringing about a "post-technological stone age", combined with the widespread use of mutagenic agents in various sites worldwide, from Chernobyl to the US weapons testing grounds in West Australia, from Iraq to Three Mile Island...) are capable of doing to OUR society, in OUR future -- and not too far down the road. Read it, if you're so inclined, & maybe it will do what SF fans have long boasted that this type of fiction is capable of -- open your mind to a richer understanding of the potential futures which may be brought about as a result of our actions. But most importantly, LEARN about the

[Rondel]: realities which are confronting the world, decide for yourself which future YOU want to see brought about (the hydrogen age with new scientific horizons opening up in every direction? Or the post-technological stone age?) -- and then WORK to make change NOW, to bring about that world. Because, as has been said by others on this subject, this kind of global change WILL happen, and it will happen "on our watch". During OUR lifetimes. It is OUR lives which will be lived in one of those potential futures. This is not JUST the legacy we are leaving for our children, and our children's children, and so on through untold generations yet unborn... ...this is YOUR LIFE, & MINE, at stake -- NOW.

[Rondel]: Me? I'll be over here learning everything I can (that I don't already know) about technologies which I can build, maintain, & repair MYSELF, in the face of a collapsed global economy & transportation network -- while teaching my child not only web design, computer programming, communications skills, & other elements of the information age, together with organic gardening, cooking from scratch, materials fabrication (from fibre to clothing, from tree to table...), and physics studies which are built around concepts such as the windmills, water wheels, belt drives, and understanding of gear ratios, on which her personal future is likely to depend. I don't intend to let my future (OR hers)

[Rondel]: depend solely upon other people's decisions, or the idea that everyone is going to get their act together, face reality, and start making the changes necessary to make this next transitional era of human progress a smooth and easily survivable one, in which we continue our forward progress without a hitch. I think it's much more likely that the last few decades' inaction in the face of the knowledge of these facts -- which has been available since the 1970's -- will continue until the point of crisis is upon us. I'm glad to try to help open other people's eyes, but I've got a family myself, and I want MY family to have a future, whatever the rest of humanity decides to do. *sigh*

[pixietrick55]: bush dident start the war, but he does hunt, and he is involved with the Safari Club, which supports Canned Hunting, which, in return, means Bush does suck, 

[Black_Dragon_123]: how did Bush not statrt the war?

[Dil*]: Rondel, I'm having problems accepting this, it seems so wild, and my parents say I'm exaggerating and freaking out too much about it. My dad says the oil will last at least for another 140 years or so. He says he's read some pretty convincing things regarding that issue....

[kduncan]: And yet another example of Repubican morality in practice, also know as "it's good for us.. but bad for everyone else". http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20051207054509990013&ncid=NWS00010000000001

[Dil*]: ***Attention, I have been informed that some people have been erasing the bush supporters wiki members page. That's not acceptable and just plain petty. I realized some people have erased our pages before, but it doesn't give us the right to erase their pages.

[kduncan]: Was it someone from this forum? Because frankly, our argument is all the stronger when we let their arguments in favour of Bush be seen, especially in light of the most recently publicised doubts on the part of the international community as to why the US actually invaded Iraq. Anyone still supporting Bush is looking more and more like a fool every minute.

[kduncan]: And another thought... are they sure they're not doing it themselves? After all, they do have ~ahem~ a history of deleting posts to their forum.

[Dil*]: dunno, I'm on okay terms with the owner currently, even though we've had some falling outs. (like the thing where she deleted your posts..that pissed me off)

[kduncan]: I have a low opinion of the group. Personally, I wouldn't put it past one of their members to destroy the wiki and try to shift the blame to the "evil peace-mongers who are secretly out to destroy the world". After all, we've seen much the same tactics from the Bush administration.. why wouldn't Bush supporters follow suit?

[Dil*]: errr, go to bush supporters association, go read the last couple posts, one of our bush haters made a really nasty comment to one of the owners of the wiki. Like a low blow, so I can believe that some of our bush haters could have the capacity to do something unreasonable like deleting a page. There are good and bad on both sides. (I just reckon bush supports are very mislead).

[Dil*]: oh wait, the guy deleted his comments I think. He said some insulting things to the owner, like personal stuff.

[kduncan]: You know, in view of the very scathing remarks I got.. not only remarks that were in support of their own position.. but scathing personal insults as well.. I can fully understand that someone might easily be able to stoop to their level. Some of the things they said to me were pretty low, and you didn't see some of the messages I got from their members. What goes around comes right back around, and if you treat others like garbage, you have to be willing to expect, and accept, the same from others. It's a message that the Bush administration has yet to learn, and, apparently, the ignorance on the part of the Bush administration regarding this simple lesson in karma extends to include those

[kduncan]: who support the administration.

[Dil*]: I believe in universal justice, that stuff catches up in the end. But I don't support deleting people's wiki, or stooping down to their level. It simply makes us look terrible too.

[kduncan]: I have to agree. Though the current administration may feel justified in stooping to such levels, and the supporters of the current association may feel justified in censoring those who disagree with them, I feel that it is important to hold ourselves to a higher standard than those held by Bush supporters.

[kduncan]: To wit: Though the only argument they may have in favour of their point is to silence the opposition, we have a wealth of factual information at our disposal to support ours. Those who censor, and that includes those who are in oppostion to the Bush administration as well as those who support it, simply lack the tools (and, dare I say, intellectual stamina) to support their argument.

[Dil*]: There are some that are good (or intelligent), but I can count them on one hand. 

[chasingpeace]: is it just me...or did a ton of comments just get deleted?

[Dil*]: uhm, I don't know...

[Lord Kügenheim]: I've only deleted one in ages.

[HeartBreakBaby]: Bush Lied Soliders Died

[Dil*]: american terrorism

[Lord Kügenheim]:

Updates

[kduncan]: In case you were wondering just how much the US government spends each year just to maintain its nulcear arsenal... http://www.truemajority.org/bensbbs/

[Duredhel]: Funny thing I found -> go to Google (here, I'll make it easy: http://www.google.com/ ), type in 'failure' (without the quotes) and click 'I'm feeling lucky.' Laugh, and pass this on.

[Lord Kügenheim]: it works just as well with "Miserable Failure". Has anyone had any thoughts on my proposal?

[slickkid53]: check this out- http://www.ebaumsworld.com/bushuncensored.html

[Wised Up]: from an American: awesome wiki! We aren't all in support of fascist election-rigging child-murdering capitalists with below-average IQ's... ^_^

[kduncan]: This one is for those Bush supporters who infer that all the nay-saying abou the incompetences of Bush and his adminsitration are Democrats and other "liberals". Note the part where it mentions that five of those former EPA heads are republican. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10913795/

[mgnJYC]: http://www.ifilm.com/player/?ifilmId=2654327&pg=default&skin=default&refsite=default&mediaSize=default&context=collection&launchVal=1&data=1422~~10

[kduncan]: One more reason why you shouldn't be a Bush Supporter: You might be invited to participate in a hunting party with the vice-president.

[kduncan]: 1.6 Billion: The amount of taxpayer dollars the Bush administration has spent on Public Relations in the past 24 months.

[tuff ghost]: Beavis and Butthead experience and resistanceisfutile_thegame <<< Visit, saysame.

[Curst]: http://hem.bredband.net/mono/votebush.html

[Monk of Boom]:   and HE says that! lol

[kduncan]: It's really sad.. and sort of frightening.. to know that a great many Americans actually voted for him a second time.

[Jecka]: ya. it just proves this country is full of dumb shits

[kduncan]: Well.. not all of us. There were a couple of us that didn't vote for him in the 2004 election. And in the 2000 election, most of us didn't vote for him.

[Monk of Boom]: and what that tells us about yanks then? XD

[kduncan]: mm.. let's see.. that we have a corrupt government that has lost touch with the American people in its efforts to promote the corporate interests that now support it?

[Monk of Boom]: u should change LOT of things there. example in bush's texas (and in MANY other federal states) ONLY things what they teach about increase, in schools is "no sex before marriage" and only evolution theory what they teach in schools is "that god create everything". why they want to neglect ur youth there?! by those things they teach that u dont need to think with ur own brains. that must be the goverments & churchs destination; make all of u brainless sheeps, who cant think with their own, make them easily direct to ways where THEY want. and i think that THATS SUCKS!

[kduncan]: The shift in thinking in the US (or from thinking to lack of thinking, if you will) does suck. Unfortuately, religion and politics are getting more and more wrapped up in one another here, and I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. You say, though, that it makes all of us brainless sheep, and that's quite a generalisation to make: not all f us believe in the dogma that the Bush administration preaches. I had the opportunity to go hear an Iraqi woman speak this past weekend. And the contrast in what she said, compared to what we have heard from the Bush media monster was quite striking. But what I found most interesting was the way in which some members of the audience,

[kduncan]: during the question/answer period, proceeded to tell her how wrong she was.. then proceeded to tell her how it ~really~ is in her country both before and after the US occupation. I wish we had some Iraqi people who could join this forum to voice their opinions (though I imagine internet access is an extremely rare commodity there since the basics of even water, food, electricity, and sewage removal are either available only intermitently or not at all). Indeed, I did an Elftown search, and there are no Iraqi's listed.. only US service personnel serving in Iraq.

[kduncan]: I'm currently struggling with a decision our own local school board has made to choose a "science" textbook that discusses the concept of creationism. Though I feel it's acceptable to teach religion in world history class or a class on world cultures, religion has no place in the science classroom. Since it's against federal law to actually teach religion in school, the school board snuck it in the back door through the religious right's very popular ploy of "intelligent design".

[kduncan]: Many states have adopted a policy of mandatory parental notification in the case of minors getting abortions. Though this may seem like a policy that would protect minors, the statistics we're seeing as a result reflect the opposite. Though we've seen a slight decrease in abortions in children between the ages of ten (yes, ten) through 16, we've seen a dramatic increase in third trimester abortions (the partial birth abortions that the religious right has used to "educate" Americans as to the "true" horror of abortion). What has happened is that seventeen year olds are waiting until they turn eighteen, and no longer need parental permission, to get an abortion.

[kduncan]: We've had election fraud at the presidential and gubernatorial levels in Florida (and apparently in Ohio), and, at least in Florida, the person who facilitated the fraud was given a promotion from state to federal government. The speaker of the house was indicted on federal criminal charges.. and gets elected in the primary race in his state. Lobbyists have been indicted on federal charges and it's deemed acceptable that the politicians he bought turn around and donate those funds to charitable organisations in an effort to distance themselves from him.

[kduncan]: It's sort of ironic that the saying most relevant to the current shift in attitudes and policies in the US would be an Arabic one, but we do indeed live in interesting times.

[Dil*]: *shock* do things just get worse from here?

[kduncan]: I think so, Dil, though that's only my opinion. Although things are bad, most Americans are still too comfortable to take any real action. Things will have to affect people personally, at home, before they are moved to take action. When Americans can no longer to afford fuel for their vehicles, heat or air conditioning for their homes, when food and water become precious commodities.. only then will people collectively shift uncomfortably and take a hard, critical look at their government.

[Dil*]: Do they deserve what's coming to them or us? --what are you going to do when peakoil hits?

[Monk of Boom]: like somebody has said, USAs fall comes from inside

[Monk of Boom]: and is it really true that its persons honour (like that being better what more it consumes) there if his car consume more fuel than his neighbours?

[kduncan]: Probably the same thing as everyone else, Dil.

[kduncan]: I wouldn't say so much that a person's honour depends on how much energy they personally consume, Monk, it's more a sense of entitlement.. and that sense of entitlement doesn't just extend to energy or consumer goods. It includes feeling that the world "owes them a living", that they shouldn't have to stand in line, that it's ok not to pay their share of taxes, that they have the right to impose their values on others, that it's ok to lie a little to get their insurance company to pay for that tummy tuck or face lift they want. Americans have largely forgotten what it is to "live within your means", and very few adult Americans don't carry some amount of debt.

[Monk of Boom]: so theres not at all this "save something to next generation" thinking? everybody thinks that "hey, im american I CAN DO THIS, RULES ARE NOT FOR ME". USA hasnt agreed that pollution contract, it only pressures small & poor countries to do it (like some african countries) which dont even pollute world as USA themself! i think USA has lack of moral or they just look/see longer than into their own belly

[kduncan]: Monk, essentially that is the current mode of thought for most Americans.. and I would stress that though it is most Americans, it is not all Americans.

[Dil*]: I like how they ignore the blaring environmental damage we as a species has caused. We have to pick up the slack now.

[Monk of Boom]: but still, too much

[kduncan]: I'd like to point out too, that it's not just Americans.. or even North Americans that are causing and/or making justifications for environmental damage. Every industrialised nation has to take responsibility for their part of the damage and make efforts to improve. I have Canadian-American dual citizenship, and have lived in both countries; quite honestly, though there may be slight differences in government policy (and public opinion) about the manner in which natural resources should be utilised, the lifestyle of Canadians is not appreciably different from that of Americans.

[Dil*]: Don't we have more tree-huggers? :)

[kduncan]: I'm not so sure that's true, Dil. As I pointed out, I've lived in bothe countries. Of the people I know personally, proportionately more Canadians than Americans own SUV's, purchase new rather than second-hand when buying things for themselves and their homes. Not one Canadian friend or relative of mine owns a hybrid vehicle, but I have three American friends who own hybrids. In fact, I'm trying to think of one Canadian friend or relative who owns something other than an SUV -- and I can't think of even one.

[kduncan]: Though Canadian cities tend to be cleaner overall, friendlier, and have lower crime rates than American cities, the actual lifestyle (and I'm talking with regards using natural resources here) isn't that much different. It's great to talk about helping to reduce consumption of natural resources, but unless a person makes a change in his or her lifestyle talk is just that -- talk.

[Black_Dragon_123]: *points at pic up top* he looks like he has gas.

[Dil*]: I know two crazy environmentalist vegetarians.

[forsakenangels]: wow, i must hurt myself. i forgot to watch this wiki lol and its awesome ^_^

[kduncan]: Oh gads.. crazy environmentalist vegetarians. I'm vegetarian myself.. have been for years, and so is my immediate family. Anyway, I was looking up something about vegetarians once.. I forget what.. and I came across a site that was funny. The guy was siting reasons why people shouldn't be vegetarian, and he claimed that vegetarianism causes mental illnesses that cause people to commit acts of violence. His proof was all the "hippie vegetarians that are rabid environmentalists." And yeah, I'll concede in advance that this is just a wee bit off-topic.

[forsakenangels]: Hmmm well a study was done on Hitler... They think that his body and mental state wasn;t healthy enough to deprive himself od meat in his diet.. so when he did, he wasn't getting everything he needed, and it broke his fragile mental state lol Doesn't sound too improbable..

[Dil*]: Hitler was a vegetarian? Are you shitting me?

[forsakenangels]: Yup... a vegitarian who didn;t want the poor cowsies and pigies to die... and then killed millions of people in his spare time from painting...

[Dil*]: Link me.